TO AW: Warning and solution.

I come with a warning, folks. The community will never change. This AW society we are in, it will never change. A few years back we could of changed it. It's too late now. Just a message before you read on, I want the mods to not close this thread as it possess a strong message. I hope you delete the troll replies that come after this. I also hope that we can have some formal, appropriate replies and good debates here.

Throughout my years at Afterwind (forever it will be known as Afterwind!) I have come across many faults with the mod system. We live in a community where trolls live over bridges and you have your mods on the opposite side, fast asleep, dazing in this dark atmosphere. That might have been a slight hyperbole, there are a few exceptions of course and they know who they are. What about those mods that aren't part of this exception?. In my opinion they shouldn't even have that mod power. No, they don't exploit these permissions the Admins gave them but they don't know how to use it. Yet we got another bunch of mods that show their power in front of the public. A few days ago, a fine example, I was spectating a game. Suddenly, Hdrakon came in with an alt and started trolling Vril (or must of been Acq). You had Acq saying in front of everyone "Hdrakon grow a pair" and you had Vril saying "leave or ban". You guys don't understand do you? By trying to deal with these type of incidents in front of the public, not only is it ineffective but you are encouraging the troll to go further. We need to be more strict on these trolls. We need these "trolls" to repent their actions. Anyway, if you had talked to him in private and maybe come to a solution or dealt with him in private, stuff would of been better. But nooo, the mods have pride. High pride. After several threads of changing the mod system, what do the mods do? They bring in new mods. We don't need new mods. We need better mods. Players that are experienced, committed and able to take on the task ahead of them as a mod. Hasn't anyone spotted yet? Becoming a mod is a curse, it seems. From the start of Guest mod, to the latest inactive mod Mathdino. Mods go inactive. Pantha, Glenmiller, Hugosch and Caulerpa, the list goes on. Therefore another category should be someone that hasn't got a life. Here are some of my suggestions:

Tophats. I know some of you mods have problems with him, or dislike him. Amid calls for him to become a mod, the mods rejected him. But when a player confronts a mod about this, the mods have already made their choice. They can't go against it. That's their PRIDE. They won't accept their mistake. They won't go back on subjects they have ruled out. Tophats is one of the most experienced players in this game. He's seen the game grow from it's foot to it's head. Why you don't want him to become a mod? Put your troubles (or whatever it is) behind you and accept him. Work with him and AW will become better.

LDK. Yes, I know, I disliked him too but for a moment, let's dismiss any claims of him being bipolar. Let's dismiss him being "autistic" at times. If you take a look at his positive aspect, he's actually rather experienced and falls into the category of "having no life" (no offence, LDK) and it's true. When I get online, he's there before me. Not only that, he's really really committed. Anyone that knows him personally or in game, they all know how committed he is. You only need to take a look at ATN and understand how much. He never gives up. But he can be an utter prick too. He's completely unpredictable. Unreliable. Yet when encouraged and controlled, he will shine. When pushed and motivated, he will push the standards bar.

Tesla. A long serving member of Afterwind, and doesn't troll, think he has a clean record and almost always online too. Very helpful and cheerful to talk to. Completely understanding of the game and of the community and will help when asked. Fine example is AtWar Radio. Then you have Desu who is very helpful with ideas and suggestions. I know both these candidates are from SRB, and the mods had a "rivalry" and ruled them out. So what? They are probably some of the best supporters of AW in the game. I doubt they will go inactive some point soon. In fact, if these candidates were to be given a promotion, they would be motivated to do so well to improve the community. That includes Tophats and LDK too.

Mods, I hope after you've read my message, you don't close this thread. I hope you do reconsider your route you are taking. AW at the moment is on a decline. Losing it's members, and the younger generation will soon get bored too. It's time to reconsider the path and help AW grow. We've already lost the chance to hand over the mod powers to some of the old guard members who had suited the criteria. Let's not repeat the process, please.

I thank you all for reading this thread. I want to stick by my message, we don't need new mods. We need better mods. Thank you.

Is this you Gardevoir?

Напишано од Clovek30, 02.06.2013 at 12:14

Is this you Gardevoir?

Who else?

Напишано од VRIL, 02.06.2013 at 12:19

Напишано од Clovek30, 02.06.2013 at 12:14

Is this you Gardevoir?

Who else?

A mod trolling looks bad for the game, let that to a player like me.

Напишано од Guest, 02.06.2013 at 12:31

Hi Gardevoir.
You are right but nobody cares about your opinion since you are a crybaby and maniac . Also we have Columna, Meester and Pulse as mods. They are doing a good job and most of the old biased mods went inactive so we are fine (Though I lost respect for CD when he came out as supporting radical feministic views: Fahr zur Hölle). All we need is to fix some permissions (check my thread) and everything will be fine. =)
PS: LDK should never, and will never become mod, due to him being bipolar. One second nice guy, next second trolling.
How do you come to the conclusion that Topsi is the most experienced player? Having played the most doesn't equal that really. Tesla could be mod yeah, but even more Desu deserves this position, he helped to grow one of the most active clans in this game and is overall nice. Also we don't have a mod for India now I think.

Lol you lost respect for CD too?
But i think gardevor's post makes sense, he has been gone for a long time, but lets makes this simple, isn't better to read gardevoirs opinion rather than people complaining about premium and backstabs?

Btw gardevoir, you forgot to post the solution, more mods is not the answer.

Well I respect you for including me in this, however, the system is getting better. There were some instances where some players who should have never been mod, in fact, became mod, but we cannot change the past only the present. Like cow said, the mods who were recently promoted are doing a great job, some of which have surprised me. I agree that we need better mods, and not more mods. In my opinion, there should be a head mod or mods that have a higher say than the other mods and that can even remove the title. Just an idea. From what I've seen I'd have to say that Pulse is the better mod, but yet again, there's no point in rating who's better and who's worse, the fact is that none of them are bad. They're all decent, at least from my experience. Yes, they make mistakes, but they need to make some to eventually be perfect. You're idea of "pride" is an example, and I'm sure from now on after some of the mods read this thread they will adjust accordingly.

I like the idea of threads like these because it brings up the matter on a serious note where we can all discuss the subject from various perspective and analyze the mistakes that were made. However, I don't like the fact that some are bashing the mods just to prove their point or cause some kind of revolution. How about telling the mods what they did good for once? All this negativity will never lead to a compromise of any sort. For example, I'd you to thank Hugosch for his constant effort to making great tournaments for the community. He works really hard to please everyone and make sure tourneys don't go inactive. You said he was inactive, I disagree, he's still helping a lot in forums and with tournaments. Playing doesn't really matter. Like I said, this is one example, I could go on and on thanking more mods but I don't wanna appear like the "nice guy" in all this.

On a last note, do I wanna be mod? I don't know to be honest, I did before, but now I'm not sure if I want to be bashed all the time. I'm not saying I would decline the opportunity, nor am I saying this to indicate my desire to be mod, but I'm not going to ostentatiously flaunt why I should be mod. There are some, however, of whom I think the mods should definitely consider promoting. Desu, that's for certain, no need to explain, just check his forum posts, his activity and so on.

Whatever me and VRIL had was between us, and I consider that as a joke, because it is mutual
I also agree with CoCow that we need a Moderator from India time zone

Lobbying was God damn obvious when I first joined last year with Dalmati, and people were frantic about the idea of a mod clan. [That was also the time when hdrakon was banned and went crazy spam in lobby] But you can't blame them, it's not like the admins are attentive enough to hand-pick the mods by themselves. Admins>Mods>Other Mods. You got to know a mod to be a mod it seems. Safari and Meester, Pinheiro and Columna, Hugosch and Bargain. Geez, the criteria for Mod (quoting Amok) was "Someone I (Amok) can enjoy a pint of beer with". This means that really they only need to be amicable and make good impressions to others. Competence is implied for mods but not sure if ascertained in few cases. I pick out VRIL and bargain.

Garde is spot on here about Mod behaviour. Albeit he never saw Mathdino's performance, I can confirm for him that Mathdino has been disappointing. Being picked POTM by admin/mods and go AWOL for the next year?

Atwar is in a decline, not because of mod problems. But because of inadequate adaptation of play style for older players. Custom maps and premium options pushes new people to play scenarios to have a fun time.

New Mods? Meh, it's not like the selection process is fair at all.

@Andartes- My tounge is faster than my brain? I'm fine with taking constructive criticism but I don't regret what I said to hdrakon nor do I think there was anything wrong with it. So perhaps ironically I'd recommend that you think before you make such a sweeping generalization.

I don't mind threads like this though I must say the "mods pls don't lock this post" trope is getting really old. We almost never do.

You're right that better mods is better than more mods. And you make some good suggestions. But your examples are poorly chosen and the drama in your post doesn't help me take it seriously.

Напишано од Acquiesce, 02.06.2013 at 17:01

@Andartes- My tounge is faster than my brain? I'm fine with taking constructive criticism but I don't regret what I said to hdrakon nor do I think there was anything wrong with it. So perhaps ironically I'd recommend that you think before you make such a sweeping generalization.

I don't mind threads like this though I must say the "mods pls don't lock this post" trope is getting really old. We almost never do.

You're right that better mods is better than more mods. And you make some good suggestions. But your examples are poorly chosen and the drama in your post doesn't help me take it seriously.

Here you set a fine example of what I'm talking about. I'll be honest, I didn't like what Andartes wrote either, but the way you approached it could of been better.

"So perhaps ironically I'd recommend that you think before you make such a sweeping generalization.". Really? Is this some kind of threat? Is this the way a mod should really behave?

"but I don't regret what I said to hdrakon nor do I think there was anything wrong with it" -

Of course you wouldn't think there's anything wrong with that. The pride thing falls into the jigsaw quite clearly here. You're using your power as a mod to threaten/scare players from writing/expressing their own view. You may think it's all bullshit what I have written here, but on the inside you know it's true. However you'll probably come up with a reply backing away from all that. Pride. You don't want dirt on your clothes. I doubt though you would of come up with that kind of post if you weren't a Mod.

But your examples are poorly chosen and the drama in your post doesn't help me take it seriously.

I don't even need to continue. Your one post has illustrated my whole point. Thanks, Acq.

First i wasn't even planning to post here, because every topic about moderators is the same. Its the same players who complain about random moderators. And how can i take this serious if the poster doesn't want to reveal his identity and is calls himself 'hifag'. Its simple: If a moderator has 'punished' someone, he is a bad moderator and if a moderator has helped someone, he is a good moderator. This basicly is how people judge; they see less then 5% of moderators work, and they pretent to know how it all works. Then they refer to 'good old times' while if you search your way to the forums, you notice that moderators complaining started when moderators got implemented. So, new or old; it doesn't matter. Last but not least you can see that everyone gives there own opinion about which mod is good or bad, and players don't agree on it at all and give different solutions to fictitious problems.

But, to give a respond to the so called 'problems with moderators' (this is a respond on my behalf, i can't speak for all moderators):

On hifags post:

"Moderators trying to deal with incidents in front of the public "
Its simple: If we did handle it private with the problem player (like you suggest); the complain would be that moderators don't act at all.

"After several threads of changing the mod system, what do the mods do? They bring in new mods."
No. Only admins decide if there should be new mods, moderators don't. Moderators only give advice in what player should become moderators, only when the admin decided there should be new mods.

"Mods go inactive. Pantha, Glenmiller, Hugosch and Caulerpa, the list goes on. "
You are just confirming what i said at the start of my post. Players only see less then 5% of what mods do. To start with myself: What makes you think that i am inactive? Because i don't play any games? Just look at the forum, i'm daily on it. I'm still busy with organising tournaments and i'm on the AW Radio for some hours recently. And then i'm only talking about the things you could see me do. How do you mean inactive?

Pantha isn't even a mod anymore, and Caulerpa is just inactive for a short time. Glennmiller is the only good example you could give and in which i agree. But really, 1 inactive moderator, so what?

Futhermore, i don't going to discuss individually suggested players by you in the forum. If players would like to know why they are not mod and player 'X' is mod, then you can ask it private. As you can see you suggest some players, and other don't agree. Its impossible to promote someone to moderator in which everyone can agree.

To cow:
"old biased mods went inactive"
Hifag said the old mods where good. You say the old mods where biased, but you support his thread.

"All we need is to fix some permissions (check my thread) and everything will be fine. =)"
Always refering back to your own topics eh? . Well, there is just 1 suggestion in your thread, which isn't even giving moderators less permissions, but give players more permissions. But if that is the solution to all bad moderators like hifag describes; i already supported it."

To Andartes:
"You didnt mentioned when and how problems started."
What problems? You talk about a problem, but you haven't described a problem at all. So didn't do hifag, except his example with the punishment in public

"Others are promoted by their cln leaders and friends"
Ah, the old 'bias' story, i've heard it before. I'm not even going to discuss this. I will give you the stats again, but you won't read them, and post the same story again in 2 months: Of the last 14 players who got promoted to moderator after Caulerpa and Me, exactly 4 came from Dalmati or BiteMe! Thats not much, and even if you notice that about 50% of the top50 players is in one of the 2 coalitions; then you can see we are actually rather pick someone from a new coalition. And even if we did pick most from BM and Dalmati, so what? If they are competent in doing the job, then coalition doesn't matter anyway.

"Pinheiro, Sificvoid and Guest done all the mod work to maintain decent aw community"
I agree. But still, you can still find the same threads about mod complaining then. And its funny how you call them decent, while Cow calls then biased too.

"Trolls insult normal players > players ask for help from moderators > moderators ignore because they have fun in their own games"
Lol. Hifag just called me inactive for not playing games, you accuse me for being too busy with games. Anyway, all reports should be handeled. If (somehow) a moderator is inactive (we are also afk now and then), just PM a mod and we will handle it. Its just a lie to say that you reported something repeatedly and that nothing happened.

"or they ask for proof.. not 1 - but 100, I once sent 10 SS and moderators still didnt do anything"
Are you serious? Offcource we need proof. And if we are unsure, we don't act. What did you expect? You report, we punish? Something like that?

To TopHats:
Well, good post, nothing to add really (and i don't say this because you used me in your example).

To Ezzatam
"Meh, it's not like the selection process is fair at all"
Great, tell us what should be the selection process.

Наводници:

OP: AW at the moment is on a decline. Losing it's members, and the younger generation will soon get bored too.

The reason Admin wanted more Mods was to deal with the increased player base - as stated in a post last week where the 'daily average players online' has increased by 70% since November. Much of this thread is based on unfounded personal opinions trying to rile members in a verbose manner. You might have a different opinion if you saw the actual work all the Moderators do... Please be mindful that you don't see all the work that is done.

Hifag, in what way is my comment at all a threat? Any reasonable person (including Andartes) can read it and see no threat there. I'm starting to think that you are just reading what you want from my posts, even though there's nothing there. Your rant about pride is insulting. I've made mistakes that I've owned up to in the past and I don't claim to mod perfectly. But this is an unfalsifiable accusation that you're throwing at me. If I don't defend my actions I am guilty and if I do then I clearly "only care about my pride". So what room does that leave for me to express my opinions? For you to claim that "inside you know it's true" is probably the most arrogant thing I've read in this thread. It's childish when the culmination of your argument is "you know I'm right you just won't admit it".

As is usual Hugo has expressed exactly what I think more effectively than I could. Your post is riddled with half facts and your presentation can hardly be taken seriously. You won't convince many people this way.

Напишано од abfahren, 03.06.2013 at 04:48

The reason Admin wanted more Mods was to deal with the increased player base - as stated in a post last week where the 'daily average players online' has increased by 70% since November. Much of this thread is based on unfounded personal opinions trying to rile members in a verbose manner. You might have a different opinion if you saw the actual work all the Moderators do... Please be mindful that you don't see all the work that is done.

Daily Average Players increased by 70% means nothing (as original value was about 200), if the number of players decreased you would then report a small number out and say it's a temporal dip. (Because total player number has increased). You can easily playing around with Maths to counter any evidence of decreasing players.

Personal Opinion is what makes a community vibrant, if you are that easily riled then you have emotional problems/weak willed. As you say, there is no transparency in all the work you guys do and we might as well deny the fact that you do anything at all. We have that freedom.

There are Mods and Admin in this post who can't trust players to host an intellectual debate on AW at all. How can you expect the players to trust you to moderate their actions between each other?

Show me what you do and tell me why I should appreciate you. To me, you sound like you are moaning about what you do really.

Напишано од Guest, 03.06.2013 at 06:50

I still have the opinion that Admins/Mods should suggest mods and deliver a list of - lets say 5 - and the community picks the one who they think will fit the needs. This way you don't get trolls as mods which might happen if you allow the players to pick whoever they want and you make sure that the players respect the moderators at the same time. The community is more than just the current mods and every new moderator should be mutual accepted.

This gets my full Support.

Also in general I agreed with the statement that AW needs better Moderation.
But I don't see it as big as a problem as it was a while ago.

Напишано од ezzatam, 03.06.2013 at 10:37

Show me what you do and tell me why I should appreciate you. To me, you sound like you are moaning about what you do really.

As far as I see in the public forum Hugosch is organizing tournaments and deliver the POTM every month. We should appreciate his contribution. Also we have Columna Durruti which make monthly statistic of the top players with their progress with sp, ELO, etc.... I am sure the rest of the Mods do their things for the community behind the scenes and we all need to thank them for it

Напишано од ezzatam, 03.06.2013 at 10:37

Напишано од abfahren, 03.06.2013 at 04:48

The reason Admin wanted more Mods was to deal with the increased player base - as stated in a post last week where the 'daily average players online' has increased by 70% since November. Much of this thread is based on unfounded personal opinions trying to rile members in a verbose manner. You might have a different opinion if you saw the actual work all the Moderators do... Please be mindful that you don't see all the work that is done.

Daily Average Players increased by 70% means nothing (as original value was about 200), if the number of players decreased you would then report a small number out and say it's a temporal dip. (Because total player number has increased). You can easily playing around with Maths to counter any evidence of decreasing players.

Personal Opinion is what makes a community vibrant, if you are that easily riled then you have emotional problems/weak willed. As you say, there is no transparency in all the work you guys do and we might as well deny the fact that you do anything at all. We have that freedom.

There are Mods and Admin in this post who can't trust players to host an intellectual debate on AW at all. How can you expect the players to trust you to moderate their actions between each other?

Show me what you do and tell me why I should appreciate you. To me, you sound like you are moaning about what you do really.

Yes, well the reason for selecting that time frame is because that is from when I was involved... stating anything else would be using information that I am not privy to... much like I have stated above. I don't think it started as an intellectual debate and I don't believe it is morphing into one, if you want to see the Mod stats then I don't see it as a problem - or even something that is that interesting... But I think you are missing the point, I do not need your appreciation, if you feel this way then you have misconstrued what I have said. I was replying to the original post in this thread... please refer above for clarification.

Напишано од abfahren, 03.06.2013 at 11:05

... if you want to see the Mod stats then I don't see it as a problem - or even something that is that interesting... But I think you are missing the point, I do not need your appreciation, if you feel this way then you have misconstrued what I have said.

Then don't make him guilty of thinking that you do a lot for AW with nothing to show for.
And yes, I do want to see! Everyone wants to see. Just that the mods and admins like to keep things secretive. Thank you very much.

You have to realise his (hifag) viewpoint is much more valid than yours, for the clear fact that he has seen clearer and further as observers, than us submerged in game. His comparison of before and after can speak volumes lol.

PS: People can misinterpret what you say, but only because your point wasn't clear enough. Semantics mate. I don't feel sorry, should I have been misinformed.

TIL

People can type a lot when they're defensive or pissy

I also learned that mods are people too!

Напишано од Clovek30, 02.06.2013 at 12:14

Is this you Gardevoir?

Nope, I have a job now.

Напишано од Guest, 04.06.2013 at 08:17

Напишано од Guest, 04.06.2013 at 07:44

Напишано од Clovek30, 02.06.2013 at 12:14

Is this you Gardevoir?

Nope, I have a job now.

Oh fuck yeah you got a job.
How is this related to anything? Also you are like 14 years old paperboy.

It's related in the fact I don't have time to act like an idiot on an international website these days.

/thread

Напишано од Guest, 04.06.2013 at 10:26

Напишано од Guest, 04.06.2013 at 08:36

Напишано од Guest, 04.06.2013 at 08:17

Напишано од Guest, 04.06.2013 at 07:44

Напишано од Clovek30, 02.06.2013 at 12:14

Is this you Gardevoir?

Nope, I have a job now.

Oh fuck yeah you got a job.
How is this related to anything? Also you are like 14 years old paperboy.

It's related in the fact I don't have time to act like an idiot on an international website these days.

Oh but you do.

In my humble opinion, it's the retarded community which is the problem. If people had the slightest bit of decency or self-confidence we wouldn't even need mods.
That you guys are in need of moderation is a testimony to your childishness, insecurity and inability. Better question yourselfs before you go and denounce the mods, who are doing their work voluntarily to make up for your inadequacies.

Guys, I have something to admit.

Gardevoir is my alt.

Hello and welcome to the internet, and I shall be your tour guide.

Our first stop, we come across Mr. Doom and Gloom, be careful not to feed him, because he a special kind of bridge troll. Just responding, and he takes delight. He only post negative stuff with a dash of arrogance, and is pretty boring. He thinks he is the only one that sees the truth, but reality, he doesn't fit in. I am of course referring to the original poster, so please do not be alarm.

Alright group, moving along now.

Напишано од NateBaller, 05.06.2013 at 21:01

Guys, I have something to admit.

Gardevoir is my alt.

was*

Напишано од Guest, 05.06.2013 at 18:49

Aren't you also the problem you are speaking of then? After all you did just insult the entire community :/ Maybe we wouldn't need mods if it weren't for people such as yourself going around degrading others!

The diffrence between me and the retarded community is that I only use strong language in the forums. This is why I never had problems with mods and don't see myself nor them as part of the problem.
The problem are the players, who are mostly spoiled little shitheads. I will try to be more diplomatic about it in future, if you feel insulted by this.

Напишано од learster, 06.06.2013 at 15:17

Напишано од Guest, 05.06.2013 at 18:49

Aren't you also the problem you are speaking of then? After all you did just insult the entire community :/ Maybe we wouldn't need mods if it weren't for people such as yourself going around degrading others!

The diffrence between me and the retarded community is that I only use strong language in the forums. This is why I never had problems with mods and don't see myself nor them as part of the problem.
The problem are the players, who are mostly spoiled little shitheads. I will try to be more diplomatic about it in future, if you feel insulted by this.

So dramatic. It is okay buddy, if you need to talk I am here for you.

Mods are also people with emotions. If one get nervous breakdown and insult other player, it is not the end of the world. Try not to get in the situation in the first place where you need to rely on mods to help you out. Instead ignore the trolls, play the game for fun and nothing else unless you want to troll back

Напишано од learster, 06.06.2013 at 15:17

Напишано од Guest, 05.06.2013 at 18:49

Aren't you also the problem you are speaking of then? After all you did just insult the entire community :/ Maybe we wouldn't need mods if it weren't for people such as yourself going around degrading others!

The diffrence between me and the retarded community is that I only use strong language in the forums. This is why I never had problems with mods and don't see myself nor them as part of the problem.
The problem are the players, who are mostly spoiled little shitheads. I will try to be more diplomatic about it in future, if you feel insulted by this.

Words from God hear them , respect them , DO THEM !!!!